Ghost Hunters Halloween Hoax
I know I’m a little late on this, but it’s just so, so amazing!
I was watching the evidence episode of Ghost Hunters, from their live Halloween investigation of Fort Delaware, on Hulu last night. While watching it, there was a few out-of-place evidences that just seemed too good to be true and too fake looking to be taken seriously. To my amusement I did a little search for the events and found an overwhelming backlash to them all over paranormal websites and on YouTube, from people who actually believed in the integrity of TAPS. I even found an online petition started by a Ghost Hunters fan which calls for the show to be canceled.
The first piece of “evidence” is a very loud, supposedly ghostly voice, saying, “You’re not supposed to be here” twice, which sounds like someone playing a recording. Here’s the video of that:
The other piece of “evidence” consists of 3 blatantly rigged ghostly pulls on Grant Wilson’s jacket. Grant just kind of awkwardly wanders around for a few minutes with his right arm by his side, and then right next to the camera, someone obviously pulls a line causing a point on the back of his jacket to dip a little. The pull happens in the same place each time, while creating a single point where is obvious that 1 line is attached to it. Grant’s over-exaggeration of the force of the “pull” is hilarious. This clip is a little long, but it’s important to view all the odd behavior, as well as him pre-raising the collar of his jacket so it can be pulled down better:
Grant Wilson wrote a childish blog post about how unfair the criticism was, saying stuff like:
I just wish that people would give us constructive criticism and help us figure out what happened rather than just take the easy way out by saying we fake stuff.
As if when fraud is suspected the best people to “figure out what happened” are the people being accused of committing it. There is a bunch of people in jail right now that probably wish the cops and the courts had left them alone to “figure out what happened” in the crimes they were convicted of.
Of course, he finished off the blog with the typical statement of hoaxers and frauds, blaming it all on people hating them and not being true to them. It reminded me of the statement Sylvia Browne made after Shawn Hornbeck was found alive, even though she said he was dead, proclaiming that the people that don’t believe her were never genuine believers of her and her philosophies anyways.
I’ve tried to point out to people for a while now that the the very least Grant commits hoaxes, but this just proves that the whole group lacks any kind of integrity and the fans are finally seeing the light and they are pissed!
CNY Skeptics 
If you haven’t already done so, hop over to:
http://www.skepticalviewer.com
There are threads with many, many posts and some good skeptical analysis of this plus past shows which seem to indicate Grant may have been up to something for a while now.
Hi I am FORMERGHFAN. I am a VFX professional working on feature films in Los Angeles and the man responisble for the 3 videos analyzing the Jacket pull.
I just wanted to respond to a few things Grant said about me.
First off, I have never tried to contact him, send him emails, or otherwise make any statements about him personally. Have I suggested that he hoaxed the pull? Absolutely.
As a father and now grandfather I believe that character assassination is childish.
I do love spirited debate. I would love to see a little of that coming from the Taps camp. Instead of “Stop accusing me and help me figure out what happened!”
I made 3 videos that Highlight the events as they actually happened. I showed beyond a reasonable doubt that:
1 The thermal image shows, not fingerprints, but rather shows the inside of his collar that was exposed to his neck and is now visible by the FLIR
2 Grant’s jacket DID NOT move (As Grant stated it did. He says he felt it move on the live video)Only his collar fabric moved, proving that No force acted upon him that should make his body react the way it did.
3 Grant, Who is right handed. Never once moves his right hand but chooses to keep it at his side and uses his other hand which is holding a recorder to investigate why his collar is moving
4 Grant is very visibly fidgiting with something at his side the entire time this is happening. Also that not once does the camera catch this action happening on his right side but only from the Left where we cannot see his right hand during the Tugs.
5 The jacket collar fabric was moved one final time after Jason inspected it and Grant did not feel it.
These are all facts. It is up to the VIEWER to decide if a Ghost pulled his jacket or if Grant faked it all.
To me those are the ONLY TWO choices you can make.
Grant himself has ruled out any other. Without us being there and with the evidence we have been so graciously bestowed with we have no other options.
I believe most viewers are intelligent enough to use common sense and make up their own minds about this.
I would love to respond to any questions about the methods I used in my analysis. If they are true investigators they should be intrigued by them. They could advance the field of paranormal research.
They can feel free to respond to any one of my youtube videos I have online:
OK so we have videos of the collar moving. How many people here know how a ghost/spirit/whatever pulls on someone’s collar? Raise your hands.. I’m really curious. Do they grab it with an invisible hand? Do they use some type of “force” like in star wars to move objects? Who here knows what it would look like if a ghost came up and pulled on a collar of a jacket like Grant’s in that very situation IF it wasn’t a hoax? How would it look different? Seriously can you tell me that? Can you call up a ghost to ask? Isn’t that the whole point of the show? Try to find paranormal activity, but then when you do, it’s fake because it doesn’t look the way YOU, as an expert on something that no one else in the entire world is an expert in, think it should.
Here’s a clue though, I’m leaning with GH on this one because real conspiracies are VERY rare. It’s too difficult to keep everyone involved shut up about it. And if you can honestly tell me that you think everyone involved with that show is keeping their mouths shut as if it’s a national security secret, that there wasn’t one camera man or tech on that show who isn’t saying a single thing, then you have a lot more faith in people in general than your hoax theories allow.
If you don’t want to believe it, then don’t. If you think it’s real, then good for you too. You’re all wasting way too much time on this.. You CANNOT prove this either way. Either you trust GH and Grant or you don’t. I don’t think it should affect your life either way, and it seems as though some of you must be neglecting more important things in order to dissect this.
I just think that I would air on the side of caution and skepticism. For starters, there is no golden standard for what “ghostly activity” is. So there’s nothing to compare this event to. It seems a little too convenient that a ghost could violate all laws of physics in order to move a collar.
We would literally have to rewrite every physics textbook to accommodate this one anomaly. What is more likely? That all of physics, from Newton to Einstein is completely wrong? Or these guys lied.
I think people were upset because it was about a loss of trust in a group they admired and believed to be honest. I know that was the case for me. If someone tugs your collar from behind you naturally use both hands to steady yourself and feel around to see what is doing it, you don’t keep one hand close to your side or in your pocket the whole time. Nobody would do that its just common sense to realize this. Once the jacket pulls were over notice how he then takes the right hand out of his pocket and gesticulates with it from then on? That’s because he’s now done creating the fake activity. It’s extremely obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense, nothing he does looks natural or adds up. I would LOVE it to be real but it is not real. Not only that, but looking back I find it odd that Grant is involved in almost every single mind blowing occurrence they capture on video. If you don’t believe me go back through the series like I’m doing now and you will see. I still love those guys though and the show I’m just disappointed that he had to fake things, one real thing caught on video would have been worth watching 100 boring shows where they caught nothing imo.
I can understand a healthy dose of skepticism in ghost hunting. I also try to debunk what I can when investigating just as TAPS does. But there are always things that are not always able to be debunked. There is a place near where I live that I have investigated multiple times and on one occasion I was hit by something I was not able to see a source. The impact hit me hard enough in the chest that it knocked me off my feet. I ended up laid out on the ground stunned. Other times I have had things thrown at me, heard crying and screaming; every experience just makes me smile and I keep going back to that old asylum. I have seen in my own footage that the things I experienced did not look real but they were. A friend caught on film that time I was layed out and if it had not happened to me I would have thought it fake. The way I fell looked very odd almost as if I was sitting down on a chair that was not there. But since I was impacted on the chest the footage seemed odd. I had a bruise on my chest from the impact as well.
I therefore understand that the way something looks on film is not the truth to what actually happened and feel that those trying to claim that Grant is faking the footage should go out and experience something like that themselves before they throw stones.
I’ve seen the video’s and I don’t know if they are faking or not , but I do have a question why haven’t any of the people claiming fake reproduced the same actions and make it look the same? All the people who have tried so far we can see the indentation of the string or their hand movements are very deliberate. And all the jackets the collars move down not backward, and as far as the thermal footage where is wrote that all paranormal events leave some form of heat signature? I do admit that his body movements seem strange .
Its misdirection.Grant moves his arm causing the viewer to watch for grant causing the “paranormal activity”while jason(or someone from the staging crews) pulls the string causing the backwards motion.
Wow, with all the talk of “ghost hunters caught red-handed”, I was expecting a little more. After all the episodes that have been taped, this is the moment where people say, “Thas it! It’s all fake!!” Huh?
It looks weird, I’ll give you that…I thought so that night when I watched it live. But I’m not ready to take what something “looks” like and make firm decisions.
Remember when we first heard about the Ill. Governor? Remember your first thought, which probably (depending on your politics), “Boy, I hope Obama isn’t mixed up in all this.” If we used the same logic that has been applied to GH, we would be empeaching Obama at this moment.
I have personally found credibility time after timee with these guys, and when I have been skeptical, it can be attributed to the home/site owners rigging things.
That british ghost show is HORRIBLE… I know it has nothing to do with this conversation, but it needed to be said.
word
Gibberish.
I hate to suspect these guys are faking evidence, but after watching the collar pull over and over – wasting a good hour or more of my life for it – (and Grant, if you’re reading this, I’m sorry, I am being “constrcutive” when I criticize) – I can draw only one possible conclusion for it… Grant pulled a hidden string 3 times and each time he followed it up by substandard acting.
I’m so disgusted by it, plus the earlier EVP “You’re not supposed to be here”, which sounded strangely like a recording emitted by a small speaker and repeated itself twice, exactly word for word, same speed, rhythm for rhythm emphasis. Funny how Grant is seen holding the digital recorder during this, and the voice got quieter as he distanced himself from the camera crew.
If Grant could fake these things, what else on the show has he faked? Probably everything… or is it limited to these stupid “live” events. Is it just limited to Grant or is Jason in on it too? I still sort of hold faith in the other guys – Tango and Steve, but they seem pretty gullible and are probably victims of the lies as well. Is ask this because most evidence on the show seems to be only experienced by Grant and Jason when they’re together. Most of it of course happens to be off camera. When anyone else comes in, the party’s over it seems and all “paranormal activity” suddenly dies down.
Grant, if you are reading, I just hope you got your ratings, and can now afford the full-options package on whatever $100,000 car you’re driving now. And that nice house in the suburbs with your wife and kids and that “quiet, simple life” you can go back to whenever the show “fails” since you said it yourself that you don’t care. How grueling and tiresome the show is to do. Just quit and go home already. You and Jason already made your money til the end of time on royalties and licensing.
I suggest making Ghost Hunters action figures by the way. The one of you can have a string that pulls your coat back by an invisible hand.
The argument you made may have had some credibility, if you hadn’t added the final sniping on the end.
I couldn’t say one way or the other about the footage. I saw it live too (and it spooked me out when it was happening), and if they had just shown the normal video footage, I might have thought something like a thread/string was caught on Grant’s hood. The thermal imaging changed my mind.
As far as the “you’re not supposed to be here” issue: I am a sensitive/medium myself. Not the caliber of John Edward (yeah, Sylvia Browne is a charlatan as far as I’m concerned), but I’ve had a few strange personal experiences, especially when it comes to the auditory. I can honestly say that a ghost/spirit CAN actually be heard at that loud a volume. It’s very rare, but it is possible. So on that piece of evidence, I’ll take it at face value.
I know the skeptics wish to discredit anything that doesn’t fit into a precise, concise category of existence. And yes, that does serve its purpose in keeping us from going totally off the edge. But you still need to leave enough room to think outside the box, and keep that notion that the paranormal may actually exist.
XGHF,;
If you watch their other show “ghost hunters academy” you’ll see that all the others on the show are in on it. Faking the evidence is to influence the younger generation into the concept of faith for control, and to keep you watching, while they, the supposed “Ghost Hunters” bage some cash.
Sorry Jason, and Grant….but you’ve destroyed any and all credibility you once may, or my not have had.
Um. No. The voice said two different things. The first time it said “You’re not supposed to be here.” The second time, it said, “You are not supposed to be here.” Listen carefully. There’s an extra syllable the next time. As to the voice quality, that’s always how EVPs sound on the show. For the sound to be muffled or the recording quality to be poor is just what you would expect. If there was a clear, precise voice, then it would be suspect.
I can’t discern anything from the video of the collar. It seems to me that one could easily mistake a collar being pulled down for a collar being pulled backward. Especially if you’re not expecting it: your surprise would make the experience a bit muddled in your recollection of it, even a few moments after the event.
They’ve actually showed a hoax on the show, when someone tampered with their evidence. I’d think anyone willing to open up the possibility that any of their other evidence could have been tampered with, just to be completely honest and objective, is not likely to set up hoaxes themselves. (I can just imagine the response to this argument: “That’s what they want you to think.” Unfortunately, you can make this argument of almost anything. It makes just as little sense to trust no one as to trust everyone.)
Lucero’s comment is one of the more realistic on this thread and leads me to the following thoughts. One common point that people seemed to overlook on this thread, believers and skeptics alike, is that Ghost Hunters is a show produced by the SyFy channel and TAPS is a freelance research team. The show is just a well manicured documentary following real investigations that TAPS handles on and off the camera. They gather, theorize, investigate and research for thier own reasons and one case must be snipped and compressed to fit into a spaced out 45 minute block before we can watch it. The show is only going to contain highlights of every investigation, success or bust. All measurable, yet unexplained occurrences will seem convenient to an unrealistic viewer since they’re all being shown within 45 minutes of each other.
To attempt to discredit TAPS is equivalent to accusing the entire SyFy network of hoaxing its viewers for the past 6+ years, including every person involved with their programming and production. That is… a lot of people. Huge conspiracy. Does anyone truly believe that SyFy has government-grade power and influence over its employees and their families for the diabolical purpose of convincing people that the human spirit can exist and be measured on Earth? And what for? I wonder if anyone has ever had the pleasure of meeting an AV geek in high school or elsewhere. These are the people who make things happen on our tv’s. Common sense may suggest that word would get out at some point.
Nah. It’s a -tv show-, not a government run agency. They depend on ratings, viewers, and $$$. Further, SciFi classifies it as ‘docu-drama’. Faking parts of it is perfectly normal since you need to keep people’s interest, especially since, as any authentic investigator will tell you, 99% of what they do amounts to very little of interest, and there is only so much they can hype. Further, people affiliated with the show and the characters have affirmed some of the speculation as to elements being faked (just google it). Even the infamous Queen Mary “somebody tampered with our camera” was most likely faked, and probably by Grant. Not a big deal if you understand that’s a tvshow and nothing more.
I dont know, it seems to me a little fishy that they could hoax something like that with the whole nation watching and still get away with it. I mean I’ve watched their halloween specials and they have multiple thousands of people watching their every move online for the whole eight hours of investigation, it seems kind of outlandish to say that this was all orchestrated and done without any one of those people seeing this being created or noticing anything at the time it was done or while it was being set up.
Aside from that I’m still going to keep my faith in TAPS, i mean, people can criticize them all they want but seriously, watch an episode of TAPS and then watch an episode of Ghost Adventures or Most Haunted. Compared to all of these other “ghost hunt” shows, TAPS looks like NASA. That Most Haunted show with the British chick and the psychic medium are downright laughable, and i would almost actually consider it a parody show. And dont get me started on Ghost Adventures, here we’ve got one uptight college kid that acts like he wants to put any ghost he might find in a choke hold, and if you think a little hood pull is bad, watch the first episode of Ghost Adventures, a brick flies through the air in all-to-convenient circumstances.
Im not saying one way or the other, im sure there’s been things reported as evidence on TAPS that really isnt for one reason or another, but it would happen to anyone, you cant be perfect, there’s always a margain for error and there’s always the possibilities. Apposed to that statement im sure there have been tons of things reported on TAPS that really are good spiritual evidence. In the end, its an entertaining show and its done in a professional way, if you dont like it, you go investigate hauntings. As for me, they seem professional enough about what they do, they obviously care enough because they got a show for it, and besides all else it’s a great and entertaining show.
It seems that your reason for believing this to not be a hoax is based on the argument from incredulity. You can’t imagine it being a hoax, therefore it isn’t. You’ve even stated that your reason for accepting their claims is based on faith.
What it looks like you’re saying is, “Look at the shoddy evidence these other shows provide. The evidence TAPS provides isn’t that bad. Therefore, TAPS has good evidence.” You see how that doesn’t make logical sense, right?
There is no such thing, as of yet, of “good spiritual evidence.” No one can even explain scientifically what a “spirit” is, let alone how it functions. Until that happens, anything can be used as evidence to support “spiritual activity” because there’s no standard to establish what a “spirit” is.
Ghost Lab is also pretty good — they don’t just document, but also experiment.
What I find most frightening about “Ghost Hunters” is the gargantuan size of the it’s audience and their abject devotion towards upholding the reputability of TAPS. It seems to me that most casual viewers could easily recognize Jason and Grant for the hapless charlatans they are. The very network that presents “Ghost Hunters” is infamous for its substandard programming.
I am a certified video analyst for a government agency, of which i can not say. The video in question, of Grants jacket being pulled, I personally analyzed and asked a co-worker to examine. we both found that the angle of the tug of his hood and if he were to use a string to pull it are off. his hood would have to be pulled by an out side source to create the appropriate angle off pull. Also, a hole would have been placed in the jacket to pull the string. With out the hole the string would have some resistance and we would see more than just the hood being pulled. As far as we can tell with the voice recording the speculation was that the recorder Grant was holding was used to play this voice. We can not assume this because the camera man does not have audio equipment on them, all audio of the crew is recorded through personal microphones that are attached to their personal clothing. so the only assumption (if the voice was faked) is that someone other than the investigative team would have to have the recorded voice. I have one other thing to mention, IF evidence is faked for the sake of a television show, and the show does not declare that what we are seeing is for entertainment purposes only, The show in question would be fined a VERY LARGE sum of money and possibly forced off the air by the government. (i.e. Jerry Springer, back in the 90’s)
The first thing I think when I hear anything about someone being from a government agency, and they “can’t say” which one, that immediately tips off the bullshit alert. Why even bother mentioning it if you’re not at liberty to speak about it?
That’s because you’re attempting the argument from authority. We should value your opinion because of who you are, and not because of the arguments that you’ve presented.
As for your arguments, your “string theory” is a false dichotomy. You’re assuming that a string in the collar is the only possible option for moving it. There could be other ways. Some type of mechanical device in the collar, maybe?
In fact, your next argument, about the audio is also a false dichotomy. The audio could have been put in during production. You can’t possibly believe these guys are beyond outright lying, could you?
As far as the being fined business, I don’t know enough about FCC regulations to comment on that. Although, I’d be hesitant to make the assumption that they would be fined for anything as ridiculous as this. I’d only ask you to cite the law which you are referring to, and how it applies to this situation.
Rick;
Try a lawsuit and watch how fast they’ll put up the slogan: “the show is for entertainment purposes only, and does not reflect the opinions of SyFy nor her parent company NBC universal, or that of Comcast with it’s 51% of shares of NBC Universal.
Rick, why are you lying?
I am not a fan or bashing nor a fan of lying. I am a fan of T.A.P.S.
I am and always will be a fan. I and my family will invest our money and our time
anyway we choose to that a fact. I don’t like when people tip over or jump hoops
to be critical of others. I am telling you what I am going to do.. plan and simple
I am not going to bash anyone. People should stop hating other and arguing things
that, WE WERE NOT THERE TO PROVE OR DISPROVE. People just enjoy what you like and think what you will. That is our right.
While I somewhat agree with you, when people make claims that are clearly false, those who make the claims should be called out on it. Especially when they expect others to believe what they are claiming. One can be so “open-minded” that their brains fall out.
It is not done out of hatred or simply to argue. When people make claims about the physical world, there are consequences for those claims. If someone says that ghosts are real, that has real implications in the real world. It isn’t simply a live and let live scenario.
What would you say to someone who believed 1+1=11? Would you say we shouldn’t argue? Would you say that it is hateful to call them out on their error? Of course not. The same goes for these ghost hunter shows. If the claims are false, they get called out for it.
Chill out! Your just jealous. And I’m guessing not happy unless you b****ing about something. Fake or not like others have said it’s entertainment like cartoons did you b**ch about the Flinstones being fake?? LET IT GO MAN.
Not sure what I’d have to be jealous about. And I’m assuming that everything goes when it’s under the guise of “entertainment?” It’s like saying having an AK-47 at work is okay as long as you call it a “paperweight.” The name isn’t important. Call it whatever you want, it’s still a hoax.
What’s even more important is that TAPS doesn’t present it as entertainment. They are telling people that they are really finding ghosts.
this is pretty stupid considering if i was to pull down on someone’s jacket it would move just like that and you have to remember where dealing with ghost’s the unexplaind maybe if the ghost was to pull his jacket down as soon as it puts the energy to do that the enery is shortend for the time being so thats might explain why there where no finger prints. and also just because he has his hand in his pocket doesent mean hes up to something it nearing winter and his hand’s getting cold…. so he puts it in his fucking pocket. and with the voice there are 23412431 theries behind it. like i heard it was the coastgaurd from on the radio. i find it funny because no one takes time to stop and think ohh shit maybe it is a ghost. and back to the pull on grants coat say the ghost was smaller then grant then it has to pull down on his coat making grant almost fall over and if you where in his position and had something acctually pull your coat your telling me you wouldent freak out. so fuck off
Well, since you’ve resorted to insults and foul language, I might as well dive in with my own ad hominem… Have you ever heard of using punctuation?
That’s the extent of your insulting capability? Wow, I’m impressed. *yawn* Personally I’m wondering about your vendetta against TAPS, considering you absolutely refuse to even remotely consider anything anyone has stated here. Case in point, the guy stating that he works for the government and can’t discuss it. Given I work for my state’s government, though I don’t have many limitations in discussing my job, I know of several that do. So your argument that it was BS is moot.
As far as other shows, such as Most Haunted and Ghost Adventures, their purpose is NOT to first attempt to debunk paranormal activity, whereas TAPS IS. Virtually every episode they are trying to find another, ordinary explanation as to what could create the scenario (strong electrical current, ventilation issues, etc.). But then there are those episodes that they can’t find another explanation (the Stanley Hotel comes to mind). And as it was mentioned earlier, someone did try to pull a hoax on the Queen Mary (the comforter incident), and the team went out of their way to POINT IT OUT!
So before you start spitting out any more tripe, consider your argument first.
Eh… you haven’t demonstrated the truth value of any of their claims yet. You’re just mad because I don’t accept what they’re saying.
There is not a THREAD (pun intended)of evidence to suggest this was not a hoax. Regardless of how it is handled the incident has destroyed his trust and personal integrity’ and dignity. This with out question will affect the past and future episodes of ghost hunters.
Here is the choice. A spirit caused the tug, Grant used string or thread to tug the jacket. Nothing happened at all, Grant is mistaken and his imagination leads him to believe he felt something. Or Grant is telling the truth.
For anyone to disbelieve him just because we feel like it would be unjustified. But for anyone to disbelieve him because he has not shown us that a spirit is the only likely scenario, is completely justified. Since there is evidence that string and thread exist it is up to Grant to convince all of us that a spirit was the only way his jacket could have been pulled. The details of the tug are not important, only the possibility that it could have been a trick
We can agree it is impossible to rule out every possible explanation, but any skeptical conclusion is only tentative and is a measure of probability. So using a trick as an example, knowing that string could have been used and looks like string is being used is the alternative explanation. We do not need to rule out every single possible explanation, all that is needed for disbelief is that his explanation does not elevate itself to a status of being the most probable.
I don’t want to get too specific about certain things because it appears that an opposition post to Ghost Hunters (T.A.P.S.) is an open call for mouth frothing spittle flying sycophants to pull out their hair in an attempt to show their loyalty to Grant and Jason.
I will tell you this though. Do NOT call me a skeptic because I do believe in “something” having had many personal experiences in my life I can not explain that would clearly be labeled para-normal as in “not of the normal.”
I will also say that I have been a TAPS fan for many years and during that time I saw things I thought were credible and unexplained and other things I thought poorly portrayed or amateurishly debunked. Too often a simple explanation that doesn’t fit the facts “I SAW” are used to debunk something and at other times when it’s fairly clear it was nothing unusual they seem incapable of coming up with anything sensible at all.
Having said that I decided a while ago that just as even a blind mice sometimes finds cheese, TAPS occasionally comes across something I would have to term paranormal. So I decided to watch for entertainment if I chose but to no longer put much faith in anything I see on GH.
This is not a personal attack either but for me neither Jason or Grant have much credibility left and in my opinion my 10 year old nephew could outwit Steve or Tango with half his brain tied behind his back.
And now finally the big “Live Event” I just have to say that for the last 4 years or so I’ve looked forward to these live Halloween specials if for no other reason than because I wish I could hunt and can’t so I tend to live vicariously through them on these long nights in front of my TV, pretending to be there for 6 hours hunting. HOWEVER, this time (2008,)for the second year in a row I was terribly disappointed in the Live Halloween event. From Kris Gartland’s perverse gushing over the WWE wrestler to her swearing on live TV (repeatedly) to this years hamhanded attempt to (in my opinion) fabricate the voice and tug. As I watched live like I do every year I was immediately upset and disappointed by both events and for the first time left my lazy-boy to log on and see what other people were saying on the net. I was so frustrated that I actually went to the live feed and told them how upset I was…
In summary, I was and still am a big believer, but have lost all faith and credibility in TAPS and now prefer Ghost Adventures on the Travel Channel. The best produced and documented hunt I ever saw was their first 2 hour special before the series even started. Watch that and tell me what you think… Anyway, so now “IF” I watch GH, because it comes on before Destination Truth (Gates is hilarious) I do it for entertainment and don’t expect anything from it… If I’m surprised that’s great, if not, then who cares right…???
Maybe that’s for the best.
P.S. Everyone ease up on Godzkill I think he’s represented himself fairly well here and certainly better than those who have accosted him. And I agree completely with the “argument from authority” comment. It’s clear that was the attempt of the post otherwise the person could simply have called themselves a highly trained professional in the field. I’d certainly put a lot more credence in that title than to say you work for the same people who are convinced a single bullet can travel a hundred yards, go through two people 7 times and come out in the end all shinny new without even a scratch… LOL Saying you work for the Government is not the best way to prove anything to anyone with a brain and the will to use it.
IansDad: You made a better debate representation than Godzkill. ‘Nuff said. But I’ll state that I’ve been watching GH too. And though I don’t discredit what they’re finding, except the pilot with the hokey brick toss, they need to stop reacting so much…they’d get more data if they were a little more scientific. But I will say also that if you like the GH guys so much, than you really can’t discredit the TAPS guys at the same time. They’re both on par with each other.
As far as the “magic bullet” theory: if you watched History Channel last weekend, and yes to my great surprise (being a JFK conspiracy theorist since I was 6), they actually PROVED through computer-simulated forensics that it is possible…maybe not the pristine bullet part though, and they also proved that that shot came from the book depository 6th floor window. I still think they had somebody in the grassy knoll…won’t give that up too quickly. 🙂
I find it amusing that godkillzu comments on how others aren’t analyzing the incidents themselves even though the whole time he is only analyzing what everyone else says to pick it apart. He is the classic, “if I use a large vocabulary and a lot of metaphors I will sound like I know what I am saying,” type of blogger. The point is instead of attacking everyone elses comments just realize its a debate to which can not be proven one way or another. People are here to say what they want to say and have their side heard. With that said I know I am attacking your comments and since that was my original point in responding is ok after all you have said on this thread. So if im a hypocrit so be it.
Nextly, im a fan of the show, was this incident a hoax? I don’t know. Im not an expert or anything, but from my individual perspective I can’t tell. Disregarding it though, look at all of the other pieces they have come up with that could be paranormal evidence, such as the lighthouse episode in southern florida, or the 2 visits to the sanitarium. I think they have done a great service to the paranormal research field with their dubunk first attitude of investigating.
Attacking the comments is first on the list. If your argument can’t even hold up under logical scrutiny, how is it supposed to hold up under scientific scrutiny?
Now that the ad hominem is out of the way…
I think the main problem with the whole enterprise of “ghost hunting” is that it is completely anti-scientific in nature. They’ve begun with the conclusion that ghosts exist, and their entire purpose in this show is to demonstrate that they do exist… regardless of the pseudo-debunking they do (token skepticism – to pacify the fence-sitters.)
In science, you don’t start with a conclusion and work backwards. Because of this approach, anything that remains “unexplained” is actually explained by their presumed conclusion… that ghosts exist. Instead of starting with a question like, “What would cause a collar to move,” any unexplained phenomena are explained by an unsubstantiated, paranormal conclusion.
And because ghosts are unexplainable (an unknown) with no known mechanism, they are answering their questions with an “unknown known.” The whole foundation is baseless. You have to define what a ghost is in exact terms, mechanism, function, and properties before you can even begin to use them as an explanation for “unexplainable” phenomena.
Since attacking comments seems to also be your priority, I’ll tread normally. Assuming that your comments are an accurate representation of your opinions…
It may be difficult, but try to visualize the concept that you are not looking at much of a whole picture, let alone seeing it. As if you were vacationing in one foreign city for 2 weeks and basing every current thought you have about that country, it’s people, it’s cultures, cuisine, etc. on your experience there. You could toss your beliefs and conclusions around in casual conversation with your buddies, but most of it wouldn’t be valid since you never lived anything about that country outside of your vacation. Fair?
Concretely, that concept applies to this topic. I’d be lying if I said I was a skeptic. Though I don’t know a thing about you, and as pretentious as it seems, I am most confident that my beliefs about this topic are logical and correct without certain science (or lack thereof) to back them up, based on the same grounds you have referenced in an attempt to prove your point. It also seems that there isn’t any set point to be proven other than your opinions (and the fact that you enjoy stirring things up among strangers.) No worries, many of us are just as guilty, myself included. However, I can’t say that I’m tickled as much as you seem to be with the whole attempt to aimlessly separate yourself from total strangers in order to feel intellectually individual.
I have and issue with your implication that paranormal research is “anti-scientific in nature.” In order to conclude that, logically, you couldn’t have been looking at the entire picture. There is so much More to the concepts of ‘supernatural’ and spirit [nouns/ verbs] than anything that has been presented to you, which is a given based on your conclusions. There are very real things/ processes in existence which human intelligence has not created/ discovered ways to measure. ‘Science’ only serves to explain and categorize the things around us so that we can understand and apply the knowledge. There is no actual science for anything humans can’t measure since it is only our way of measuring things. It would be most pretentious to believe that the existences of real things/ processes just fail to be in the absence of an established measurement or human belief.
“I think the main problem with the whole enterprise of “ghost hunting” is that it is completely anti-scientific in nature… In science, you don’t start with a conclusion and work backwards… You have to define what a ghost is in exact terms, mechanism, function, and properties before you can even begin to use them as an explanation for “unexplainable” phenomena.”
Science would validate that should something not look, sound or contain the DNA of a duck, it cannot be one. If a person [given that this person is of sound mind and form] experiences an occurrence which seems unordinary or out of place for the type of occurrence and there is no normal measureable cause for it, then the experience is paranormal. Visual documentation serves to provide others with second-hand experience, as every type of documentation does. Since TAPS wasn’t attempting to measure irregular shirt collar movement, they could only rely on their observations and visual documentation. They travel to each investigated location for the purpose of validating or debunking any given claims with human measurement. Their group has never made public claims about the “Why?” about ‘ghosts’ since they only deal with measureable documentation. Where a tv show may be well received by the viewing population, the subject matter may not be of “popular opinion.” If you’re part of the big bad “hoax conspiracy” movement, I’d suggest that you to check out my other comments on this thread…
Since we’re discussing the logic of science, I will conclude that Every science [including the very establishment of the subject] gravitates around working backwards from a conclusion, gravity included. If there was nothing to look at, touch, taste, smell, hear or experience first, there would be no ‘science.’ There would never have been any reason to explain, measure, reverse engineer, etc. anything. With science, we do start with a conclusion (the given) and work backward (the ‘Why.’) The conclusion is the foundation for explaining something in the first place. If we knew all the answers, there wouldn’t be a science. Either way a truth remains that we will die. There is no present way explaining what happens from then on and, until there is, we only have our wits to guide us.
gab;
I find you to be intelligent but lacking in any real thought process behind it. Yes, you are too willing to believe in their stories rather than examining them to find if there’s any truth within those stories. Why, I could make the claim that you have a drug addiction and are looting your neighborhood to support your habit. And if no one were to examine the evidence, then it’s your word against mine, simple enough? And that applies to stories about ghosts as well.
The skeptical atheist — your one smart cookie!
Two guys conjure up the dead on cue. The evidence has been faked since season one. There are dozens of debunking videos here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ultimatetubetime
Uhh just a brief thought on “The Skeptical’s” comments RE: working backwards from an assumption rather than forwards from a conclusion or proven. I think what you say again has merit but it may not apply here for only one reason…
Those of us who believe feel we ARE working from some extent at least, from an accepted assumption. You are right we cannot prove it or anything yet because what we choose to belief is based on faith. And before anyone jumps out of their skin thinking I’m making this out to be a cult or religion I can only say, “don’t be silly…”
My point is only that it’s our beliefs and the faith in them that lay at the foundation for what we choose to spend our time trying to prove. And although that is hardly scientific proof, or even scientific in nature, it’s all we have to work from at the time.
When people thought the earth was flat or when Galileo decided the Sun was the center of the galaxy, both he and those opposed to him were both working on faith at the time. A belief in what they were faced with and therefore assumed to be true. Neither could have proven their point either way at the time but both fervently believed their way was right.
It took quite a while before we had the ability to see that Galileo did in fact have his “math” right. But up until then he was simply a very smart man who proved his theory with numbers and symbols that only a very small percentage of people at the time knew how to decipher.
So what I’m saying is that often in human history it takes an open mind and a willingness to work to prove what you believe is true ACTUALLY IS TRUE.
Consider for a moment that this is all NOT some crazy mania that so many people share and think for a second. If they can’t prove they’re right, and I can’t prove they’re wrong… IT leaves us only to continue working… Keep trying… Continue the skepticism because that helps drive us. Just don’t think for a minute that anyone can say we’re wrong and prove it anymore than we can right now say we’re right and prove it.
You’re beliefs drive your skepticism and ours nurture our certainty.
But if we keep working maybe one day we can find the right tool… The right equipment… The scientific knowledge that will allow us to prove what we know to be true, just as NASA is currently working to prove the existence of Dark Matter. It’s accepted now as being true, but still not proven. We can not prove it but we know it’s there…
So all you can do is keep trying…
I don’t mind a skeptic. And I love a good spirited debate.
I would have to strongly disagree with you on this point…
The people who believed the Earth was flat were basing the entire conclusion upon faith, yes, upon what the Bible said. They believed the Bible despite the evidence to the contrary. But Galileo was certainly not basing his claims on faith. He used observation, testable experimentation and evidence to prove that the Earth was round.
Faith is not just the act of accepting a claim. Faith is believing in something despite not having a reason to. Galileo had plenty of reasons to accept the idea that the world was round. The people who simply read the Bible and believed it did not.
And whether or not people accepted the actual proof that the Earth was round is irrelevant. Truth is not governed by popular opinion. That is the problem with faith. When no other reason is available for believing in something, people cling to the argument from popularity.
And while, yes, it takes an open mind to prove things to be true we need to be realistic. After hundreds of years and failed after failed attempt to show anything substantive whatsoever, the odds seem pretty bleak that there is anything to the claims at all.
There isn’t even a proposed mechanism for how a ghost could exist. The whole enterprise is purely speculative. Using contradictory methods of detection, from infrared heat sensors, to night vision, to electromagnetic sensors, the whole thing is nothing but guess-work. None of these devices are meant to be used for what TAPS is doing with them.
When using EMF detectors, they don’t even consider the inverse square law. More than an inch away from the source of EM and you won’t get a reading. It isn’t even plausible to use such a device to detect actual electricity. No person who actually knew how to use one of those devices would use it that way.
I just think that if you can’t find evidence to support a conclusion after a few hundred years, then maybe it’s time to move on to something else.
If you’re going to use your thoughts up on a topic, should you actually think about it? If you have, and I prove to be the thoughtless one, please inform me about how ‘paranormal’ subjects are to be properly measured/ proven and how our 5 senses are supposed to recieve that information each time it occures. You have figured out all the sciences behind the things you disprove, correct?
I reckon you’re either a believer in paranormal or you aren’t and what’s the point of arguing either way. Those who believe don’t need those who don’t sobeit.
if you IDIOTS think its so fake…THEN DONT WATCH THE DAMN SHOW!!! That simple morons.
I completely agree with you. Why watch it if you think everything is fake?
Look, I like the show. I’m entertained by it. I also like the characters. I, by no means believe that what they’re presenting to us is for critical consumption. It’s entertainment, and it entertains me. As for the existence of ghosts, like all matter in the universe, ghosts have to abide by the same rules of physics that everything else does, unless they are composed of some, as yet undiscovered matter. Everything in the universe is composed of atoms. If ghosts have the ability to be seen, to move objects, and to create sounds (or voices) they too must also be composed of atoms. As a rule, atoms do not have the ability to appear and to disappear. When enough atoms of the same element are grouped to together in the same place at the same time, it is called matter. It has mass, and it is generally visible by some electronic visualization technology that already currently exists. When atoms of the same element come together to form matter, they lack the ability to pass through other matter because as another rule of matter tells us, that atoms contain electrons, or negatively charged particles. All atoms do, therefore all matter does. Negatively charged particles have repulsive properties, as in “same charges repel, and opposite charges attract”. If this is true, which we know it is, it means that one type of matter cannot pass through another type of matter. ie. ghosts cannot pass through walls, doors, windows (unless they’re open!) etc… So, now eh know a few facts about ghosts. If they can move objects, be visible to camera or to naked eye, or make sounds, they must be made of atoms. If they are in fact made of atoms then they must have mass, be visible, and be measureable. Ghost Hunters has shown none of these things. I do find it really entertaining though!
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Who gives an honest crap?! At the end of the day, it’s all entertainment value. That’s it. People who are real about their belief in ghosts and the paranormal know the difference between these shows and actual investigating. And regardless of whether or not anything they put in these episodes is genuine, we are all watching it for the same reason. We like to be freaked out. You don’t take your ghost hunting interest super serious by sitting down and watching Syfy. If you are unable to separate your imagination from reality, because you sit here and try to dissect Hollywood Television, I apologize. If you want real ghost hunting, go do it and don’t expect it from people who literally get paid to lure you in by your nose. If you wanna be like me and enjoy it from afar, with whatever added flair their is because you just want to be freaked out… don’t complain about paranormal shows and their legitimacy.